The exchange is quite revealing, and leads to another man beginning to seriously question whether the false doctrine of "eternal security" and/or "once saved always saved" is really the truth.

 I read your critique - all of it.

 You have taken much of what I said out of context. I have not yet decided whether or not to send your critique to my list.  Don't flatter yourself by thinking that it is because I am afraid 'to be exposed'.  I have 'worked' this subject at great length, and most of the folks on my list have been rehearsed on every scripture and issue you brought up.

 One thing - you accused me of being envious of full time preachers. I am a full time fully supported preacher and people do send me money. They just almost never see me asking for it.

 You patently misunderstand what I say (about OSAS) because your perspective on what it means to be saved is obviously different than mine. OSAS is presumed throughout TGD.

 You have indeed 'damned' me by accusing me of serving a false idol god.

 You have also damned me 'merely for' teaching OSAS.

 If I send your critique out to my list, you will be rebuked by some of them.  I only know of about 4 or 5 on the list who agree with your Probationism.

 Do me a favor - OK?  When you publish your critique of my pro-OSAS article, include the URL for our web-site and an e-mail link, so that those who read what you say can see for themselves and so I will be allowed to answer if they care to inquire.
--Dean

  I am certainly not afraid of being rebuked by anyone on the OSAS issue.  I invite that, because that's one of the best ways to learn.  When you and your list members are utterly unable to actually bring a solid and truthful Biblical rebuke against me, it will be yet another testimony that I'm teaching the truth.

  I have a list of 50 scriptures at my "OSAS is wrong" page that clearly refute the doctrine, that have yet to be explained in a way that can be harmonized with OSAS by anyone who professes to believe OSAS.

  http://www.linkjesus.com/alwayssaved.htm

  I have invited many, many, OSAS believers and teachers and pastors to explain OSAS to me, and to explain how OSAS can be possible in light of those 50+ scriptures, and nobody, not in 4 years, has ever taken up the challenge.

  In contrast, I've had OSAS believers say they "only follow Paul", or that they "don't believe the gospels are for us, but for the Jews", and other such stupid nonesense.

  Even you turned tail and ran away, blocking my email when I invited you to explain them the last time.

  So, if you think I'm afraid of the people on your list rebuking me, you are living in your own fantasy world.

  Besides, it is not me that damns you for teaching OSAS.  It's Jude 1:4, which clearly puts a finger on the fruits of the doctrine.

  And when I put the critique to my heresy page, you can be sure I'll put up your URL.  I did so with all the others.

  Jason

What makes you 'so little fun' to deal with, is that you never concede on anything at all. You blatantly accused me of being envious against all paid preachers (which I am not, and no one who has heard from me would ever believe you); but when I informed you that I AM A full time paid preacher and such, you merely go on to attack on another front - not making the slightest concession on any matter, even if it has nothing to do with the main controversy between us.

Perhaps the problem here is really YOUR ENVY of full time, paid preachers?  Perhaps your anger is because no one thinks what you preach is worth paying for?  I went for years, only receiving the slightest and rare contributions, and only once do I ever remember complaining to the list about it - but when I did, I declared that any contributions sent to me for the following month would be refused. I did not receive any contributions during that month.  I have always argued that people ought to
support any ministry that truly "feeds" them - but I also argue that they get to decide what is "good food" and what is not, and HOW MUCH IT'S WORTH.

In the previous 6 weeks, about $3000.00 was sent to me by people who were grateful for my labor in the word. Now I realize that my saying this is likely to put you right over the top - but I suppose I want you to get around to your ultimate summary and conclusion quickly, so that this episode between us will end.

Your rage against OSAS is what ought to give you away to yourself. I can still hardly believe that you would openly DAMN someone merely (and only?) for teaching OSAS.

AND FURTHERMORE, your empty boast that no one DARES to take you up on your "50 scripture" challenge presumes that they are AFRAID to answer to it.  What you are not realizing here is that your challenge ASSIGNS a TON of work to whoever would care to take it!  I, on the other hand, could challenge you to answer in detail to my '20 posts long' series
in favor of OSAS, and then accuse you of being "chicken" if you refused to do it!

Do not become "a legend in your own mind" - "The mighty Word-Warrior who stands on top of his own little bump on the ground imagining that he is the undisputed master of it - when in fact, no one else really cares about his little bump"  In this case, your "list of 50" is the little bump you are standing on - and quite frankly, no one (obviously) cares.

The reason why I do not use your posts against OSAS as a platform upon which to defend the doctrine is because THEY ARE SO BADLY WRITTEN.  Now that is my real reason for not sending your critique out to the list.  You cover way too many separate matters too quickly and incompletely, and think to drown your contestant in a flood of noise and fast moving objects.

So now that we have come closer to what amounts to the bottom line between us on this matter - it's your move. If I block your e-mail again, it will not be because I am afraid that I cannot make a fair answer: it will be because when you speak to the OSAS debate, you are BORING.

I have been through ALL your arguments a multitude of times, and see no need to go back and answer to them all again JUST FOR YOU and you alone.  I will share this (with your challenge - it is below) with a few others who may be interested in looking into it.

  Nonetheless, 3 John 2 to you.......
  John 5:24  Dean

Dean,

I didn't reply to your point about preaching for money, because it wasn't worth it.  I'm sorry you were offended that I didn't continue the discussion along that point.  But I will address it again now, since it seems so important to you.

Clearly, preaching and receiving money for it is not wrong.  I never said it was wrong, I justified it with scripture.  You implied it was wrong, when you declared that money was the reason and motive for those who refute OSAS, as if the reception of money alone was enough evidence to damn their theological perspective on the matter.

I understand that there are men who are clearly "preachers for money" and who have a lust for money, and who are fleecing the flock as they are wolves in sheep's clothing.

But your point about money in the context of the OSAS issue was just plain unfounded and unsupported.

I knew you were a paid preacher from the beginning; your mention of that fact was no new information, and doesn't help you make your point in the least.

On the one hand I can see how teaching OSAS would make it more difficult to collect money.  After all, if I was convinced I was OSAS, I would never ever have any further need to go to Church or do any Bible reading or preaching, and I certainly wouldn't feel the need to contribute money to anyone if I was once saved for all time, and had no further worries and concerns in this life.  And there are many OSAS believers who live their lives this way--the evil fruit of the pernicious doctrine.

So many examples of Christians like that are absolutely proof positive that it would be better for you to take a millstone around your neck right now, and cast yourself into the sea, than to continue to teach a doctrine that stumbles people like that.

On the other hand, OSAS preachers have a great opportunity for money, because the god-given human conscience as led by the Holy Spirit clearly tells all that such a doctrine is false, and the sinner will feel guilty.  And thus, a OSAS preacher will
constantly be in demand as a preacher to reassure those who are living in sin that they are OSAS.

But, I can't just come along, and point out that a OSAS teacher is receiving money, and use that as proof that they are evil.  That's just a stupid and insane way to argue, because of course we can receive money from preaching.  And yet, that's how you argued the point in your monologue against those who refute OSAS.

Because your argument was so insane and stupid, I wondered what could possibly be the motivation behind the comment in a man who is apparantly smart enough about Scripture and reasoning to write "the Great Dream", but stupid enough and careless enough to level a false accusation about money as if it proves the point about the doctrine.

I did make a supposition and accuse you of jealousy, because of another thing I read in "The Great Dream".  You wrote how you were shocked at the pile of money you received after being invited to preach in a large Church.

At http://www.apostasynow.com/tgd/millions.html, you wrote,

"But WHY should we despise financial security?"

You are NOT right on that matter.  A bible, in the old days, took a skilled scribe 10 months of careful labor to produce on copy.  Imagine hiring an expensive lawyer for 10 months today, and you can imagine the expense.

If I was wrong, and you are not jealous over the money other men receive from preaching, then please understand how it was possible for me to get the wrong idea from what you wrote elsewhere, and now, please accept my apology.

But now I am left with wondering why you said something so stupid, about money, if it wasn't jealousy.  Perhaps you were just careless.  Oh well, I guess that will teach me to be careful when trying to guess motives.

Because supposing motives is wrong, we just need to be right when we do.  For example,

Acts 8:23 For I perceive that thou art in the gall of bitterness, and in the bond of iniquity.

And you suppose and guess my motives in return.  You suppose I have a monetary envy, or that I'm angry that I don't have a larger ministry.  Well, I don't.  Mostly, I still feel that I need to complete several things, like a solid commentary on 2 Thess 2, and Ezek 38, and a few other things, before I'm ready to begin really publicizing my ministry.  I do plan on selling a book, or even two, but I don't want to sell something that's not ready.

On the other issue:

Yes, refuting 50 scriptures is a "ton of work".  But it's not just those 50 that I've happened to collect, it's really about 300 scriptures that need an explanation.  I've just been too lazy to collect any more and post them, because 50 is more than enough to convince anyone who has a mind to believe what the verses say, and more than enough to force everyone whom I've ever encountered on the subject, to SHUT THEM UP, which is really one of the goals when we rebuke heresy.

Please post all of your "eternal security" diatribes to the net, so I can read them all in full and get a fuller understanding of how you justify it to yourself.  After all, I now see that I can't just quote a scripture that refutes OSAS, when you think you have
picked it apart and shown how it doesn't really disprove OSAS.  First, I have to refute your twisted interpretation, otherwise, you will think I'm just stupid for quoting a verse, that to me, obviously refutes OSAS.

LOOK, Jason,

YOU SAID:
But, I can't just come along, and point out that a OSAS teacher is receiving money, and use that as proof that they are evil.

REPLY:
I mentioned money as among the things, not as the primary or only thing - my point being that PROBATIONISM is used to
bully and manipulate people.

It is telling that below you suggest that once the DAMNATION THREAT is removed from your soul, that you will subside into a selfish sinner: well, speak for yourself only, please?

I may read few more of your little snarls before I block your e-mail again.

Or you can just lay off.

3 John 2 (getting a little harder to say with feeling.....)
Dean

And I refuted the point about money, showing your point to be invalid the way you presented it.

Your point was also that refuting OSAS is used to threaten people, and I refuted that, too, by listing several verses where God threatens us, thus proving that "making a threat is not evil".   That's the reasoning of the falesly pious world, that thinks all who make threats are evil.

Another way the falsely pious world reasons, is that any "name calling" is wrong, any rebuke is wrong, any condemnation is wrong.

And it stronly appears as if you buy right into that kind of false piety by overlooking my refutation of your thoughts by showing about how God does threaten us, and instead you skip ahead to cry "oh my, you say I worship a false god, how dare you ..."  and "oh, I can't believe you would say I'm not saved for preaching what you claim is false doctrine".

You know better.  You KNOW that false doctrine leads to damnation, and here's a reminder:

2 Peter 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.
...
Dean, as long as you believe I'm a heretic, don't bless me in the slightest.  You are not commanded by God to even tell me "God speed".

But you ARE to love your enemies, or have you forgotten?  If you love me, then rebuke me, or have you forgotten that also?

Simply attempt to refute what you consider to be the heresy you can't stand.

Your doctrinal enemy who is willing to show love for you by rebuking you, thus proving that he is one who is approved by God,

Jason

Hi

Jason, I think you miss the main point.  A person who is truly saved is changed by The Spirit of God so that He cannot do the things that would lose them their salvation so that once truly saved you will not do things that will cause you to lose your salvation.

We unfortunately are in a world of lukewarm 'believers' who follow ritual acceptance of Jesus and think they are saved but do the things that do not please Jesus so that they will say to Him:

"Did we not prophisy in your name etc." and He will say "I never knew you!"  because they really never knew Him, only a styilised, denominational version of Him.  This is the fault of their leaders (read ministers and similar) who will have much to answer for on the day of judgment.

The true believes also know that once they are saved because of their true confession Jesus is able to keep their salvation and help them in it so that Satan can never remove it from them.

--Neville

Neville,

It appears you are thinking of

1 John 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

and

1Jo 5:18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

Please note that I agree with the verses, but I do not agree with you.

I agree that one who is presently being born of God is not presently sinning.

Your understanding of "OSAS", as you have explained it, is a distortion of the verses, which requires changing the verb tenses to be:

"Whosover HAS BEEN born of God WILL NOT commit sin IN THE FUTURE;"

Can a person LEAVE JESUS, and LEAVE THEIR FIRST LOVE, that's the question, and the answer is an UNMISTAKABLE, YES!

Rev 2:4 Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love.
Rev 2:5 Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.

Yes, we are in a world of lukewarm believers, and you derrive the term from Rev 3.  Did you read Rev 2 and 3 recently?  Those two chapters present a very strong rebuke to the heresy of OSAS.

Can Satan deceive us to the point where we lose our salvation?  YES!  Satan can't just take away our salvation, he first has to teach us his doctrine of demons which decieve us, as Eve was deceived.  OSAS is a doctrine of demons.

James 1:13-16
13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.
16 Do not err, my beloved brethren.

Can a believer err into sin and death?  Yes, otherwise James would not have written the warning above to the "beloved brethren".

Romans 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

2 Peter 3:17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.
18 But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen.

1 Timothy 4:1  Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils.

Hebrews 3:12-15
12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living
God.
13 But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the
deceitfulness of sin.
14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;
15 While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation.

1 Timothy 1:18-20:
18 This charge I commit unto thee, son Timothy, according to the prophecies which went before on thee, that thou by them mightest war a good warfare;
19 Holding faith, and a good conscience; which some having put away concerning faith have made shipwreck:
20 Of whom is Hymenaeus and Alexander; whom I have delivered unto Satan, that they may learn not to blaspheme.

--Jason

Jason,

My sense is that a person who is truly saved will Love Jesus enought to repent of sin and not wifully keep committing it.

I believe you can reject Jesus.

My problem is that a person who is saved and Loves Jesus truly will not do this so we have the problem of were they saved
 really before they rejected Jesus?

or was it just a head confession.  The devils  believe in Jesus but do not love Him or serve Him out of love.

 I have problems with either view point for or against OSAS and so I am going to  pursue the matter with Jesus when I see Him, if it is worth discussing then.

Neville

Neville wrote:  My sense is that a person who is truly saved will Love Jesus enought to repent  of sin and not wifully keep committing it.

Jason:  Neville, I absolutely agree.  I also believe that if a person does not repent, then they are not saved, but are like the foolish virgins of Matt 25:1-13, or like the many Churches in Rev 2-3 that needed to repent, but didn't.

Neville wrote:  I believe you can reject Jesus.

Jason:  I believe you can, too.  I think you are right.

And this is in contrast to what Dean was saying.  His version of OSAS prevents a person who was saved from ever rejecting Jesus.  Other views of OSAS say that even if a person lives a life of open rebellion, they are still saved--and that's the view that's the most damaging, and is the "rotten fruit" of the doctrine.

Neville wrote:    My problem is that a person who is saved and  Loves Jesus truly will not do this so we have the
 problem of were they saved  really before they rejected Jesus?

Jason:  Well, I don't think that's the only possible problem.  I think the real problem is, if a person thinks they are saved and thinks that they love Jesus, and truly believes they love Jesus, and are actively working to preach and fulfill the commands in the gospel and so on, they will not KNOWINGLY deny him.  In other words, they would have to be DECEIVED to deny him, or be deceived into accepting and teaching the doctrines of demons.  And this is why Jesus repeatedly warns about deception, because it is one of the primary ways we fall.  Remember Eve, she was deceived, unlike Adam, but they both fell.

And the Bible also warns us about what leads to deception, which is sin, and doctrines of demons.

1 Timothy 4:1  Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils.

Sin, of all kinds, leads to deception.  I know I quoted this before, but here it is again:

Hebrews 3:13 But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.

In the spirit of Hebrews 3:13, I exhort you to NOT put off studying this matter if you are undecided.  Continue to study the issue and be edified.  Study the issue from both sides, and exercise your discernment so that you can determine which side is telling the truth.  The knowledge will save you, and save others.  Don't reject seeking the knowledge of the Lord on this matter.

Hosea 4:6  My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children.

I urge you to "try the spirits".

1 John 4:1  Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.

The experience of doing so will eventually lead to to be able to "discern both good and evil".

Hebrews 5:14  But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.

That way, you will be able to know which side is right, and which side is wrong.

An outstanding website refuting OSAS can be found here:

http://www.geocities.com/1christlover/OSAS-.html

I also urge you to read the Assemblies of God position on the subject -- see their position papers.  http://ww.ag.org

Jason Hommel

I have thought about this matter of OSAS and fall back on God's gift of free will.  We choose to accept or reject Jesus and Jesus can only confirm our salvation on this basis that we choose or reject Him.  Then OSAS caomes into play for those
that will accept Jesus until the day they appear before Him.  This is different to predestination where God chooses.

Neville

Neville,

I'm glad you agree that we must choose to accept Jesus.  But choosing Jesus is not a one-time action, it is an action that must be continual.  If we do not continually choose Jesus, and we stumble and fall and reject him, then he must reject us, until
the time comes when we repent.

Here are a few verses that show choosing Jesus must be a continual action on our part, not a one-time action on our part:

"endureth to the end"

Matthew 10:22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.

"exhorting them to continue in the faith"

Acts 14:21,22
21 And when they had preached the gospel to that city, and had taught many, they returned again to Lystra, and to Iconium, and Antioch,
22 Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.

"continue in them"

1 Timothy 4:
15 Meditate upon these things; give thyself wholly to them; that thy profiting may appear to all.
16 Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.

Romans 11:
13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:
14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.

"if thou continue in his goodness"

19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.
20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not
thee.
22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.
24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

"continue in the faith"

Colossians 1:
21 And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled
22 In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:
23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;

Sincerely,

Jason Hommel

Neville

When I tell them they should examine themselves to see if they are really saved, boy oh boy, the sparks and accusations fly.  "How dare you!" is among the most mild responses I receive when I quote Phil 2:12-13 to them.

Jason

Have you seen mine?

http://members.optusnet.com.au/~salvetti
Neville

I didn't know you had a web site.  I'm going there now.

Jason

Neville

I found nothing at all about when God will come to catch us away.  1 Thess 4.  No discussion of when you think that event will happen.

I believe the gospel of the kingdom is when Christ returns to reign for a 1000 years.  This starts with the rapture, the transforming of the saints to immortality (1 Cor 15), and catching away the saints to heaven for 7 years, the duration of
the coming time of tribulation.  That we are to be granted immortality at the resurrection is the gospel hope of Christians.  The discussion of when, and how this takes place, is a subject of "pretribulation rapture" vs. other views, such as "mid trib rapture", or "post trib rapture", or other views.  The rapture, or catching away of the saints, is the entire subject of my website, and includes discussion of the kingdom.

For an introduction, please see the following:

www.linkjesus.com/rapture.htm

Sincerely,

Jason Hommel

 I would like to think we went pre-trib but as the Jews think we are in the beginnings of it that may be a little hard.

 I believe in it but when?

 Neville

When I first began studying the issue, it took me over a year to begin to feel comfortable about one idea or the other.  Now, I'm pretrib, solid as can be.  I don't believe the tribulation of the Day of the Lord has begun yet, because there are certain things that have to happen first.

Please remember my site when you begin to look at studying the issue.  My site is the most comprehensive that I know of on the subject.

Sincerely,

Jason Hommel
http://www.linkjesus.com/