Randy contacted Jason in email first, challenging a debate according to his terms, which were not acceptable.

Jason replied, and suggested new terms.  Randy revised his terms according to most of the suggestions:

• All who take up and participate in this challenge freely enter and freely depart from the debates according to their own free will. Before departing from the debate the departing party will answer any last unanswered questions and may make a statement of conclusion.
• All participants must be senior ministers operating their own ministry web site.
• All participants must post the debate on their official ministry web site for as long as they participate. The posting must be in an unedited format without modification to words, additions or omissions. A proper and operational link, including proper names and titles, must always be displayed that will allow access by visitors to an opponents site.
• The debates will be conducted through email. Each email is to be immediately posted on the web. Each participant agrees to respond as soon as is possible, agreeing beforehand to make the best effort to respond within 24 hours, or within a few days or a week at the most.
• The format of the debate is as follows: a participant is to make a statement or pose a question. The other participant will then follow with a rebuttal and then their own statement or question. This sequence will go on until one or both participants decline further involvement.
• LastDay.info will only host debates with individual web site ministers, but is free to carry on multiple debates at the same time.
• The debate is only between the two participants and comments by third parties are not allowed. Appeals to visitors through the debate forum are not allowed.
• The opening position will always be started by Randy Loudenslager of LastDay.info and is posted below.
• Last, but most important: Speculation is not allowed. The writings of men are not allowed. Recognizing that Jesus, Stephen, and many other preachers in the scriptures used descriptive terms that were often taken as insults by their enemies, we will not forbid such descriptive terms when used constructively and are applicable to the specific argument. We recognize that lies and slander are wrong. We recognize that the point of this debate and the purpose of following the command to expose and rebuke heresy and false doctrine requires showing where and how the other has lied, or twisted, or distorted the Word of God. The sole source of truth to be used and referred to will be the Holy Bible, no other source qualifies.
• By participating you signal your intent to abide by these terms.

9-11 Randy:I, Randy Loudenslager, hereby put forth that the Holy Bible clearly and without question foretells the [rapture] of the body of Christ will be on the last day of the [tribulation] which is the day of the LORD and the last day of this age.

I agree that the rapture will be before, or at the start of, the Day of the Lord.  I agree that the "last day" referred to several times in the New Testament is a reference to the Day of the Lord.

Where we disagree is how long the Day of the Lord is, and when the Day of the Lord will occur, because I believe the Day of the Lord begins at the start of the tribulation to come.  Phrased another way, I believe the Day of the Lord is 1000 years long (based on 2 Peter 3:8-10), and that the 7 year tribulation is the first part of the Day of the Lord.

I looked over your site, and your evidence for what you believe, so let's start with Ezekiel 38-39, since I believe this passage of scripture provides the clearest instruction that refutes your belief in several ways.

Regarding Ezekiel 38, my belief is that God will send a fire on the enemies of Israel at the start of the Day of the Lord, which is the start of the 7 year tribulation, and here are a few scriptural reasons why.

First, the nations that attack Israel in Ezekiel 38 are listed specifically, and do not include the whole world, and thus, this is not Armageddon, in which "the whole world" is gathered against Israel, as shown in Rev 16:14 "For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty."

Second, after the fire of God destroys Israel's enemies, Israel burns weapons for 7 years.  This length of time is indicative of the 7 year tribulation.

Eze 39:9 And they that dwell in the cities of Israel shall go forth, and shall set on fire and burn the weapons, both the shields and the bucklers, the bows and the arrows, and the handstaves, and the spears, and they shall burn them with fire seven years:

It would be extremely speculative to believe that Israel is burning weapons of their enemies during the first 7 years of paradise after Christ has physically returned.

Third, Ezekiel indicates later in the narrative after the fire of God has poured out, that it is the "time of Jacob's trouble", by mentioning that God will "bring again the captivity of Jacob (or Israel)", which line is repeated in Jeremiah 30.

Eze 39:25 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Now will I bring again the captivity of Jacob, and have mercy upon the whole house of Israel, and will be jealous for my holy name;

Jer 30:3 For, lo, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will bring again the captivity of my people Israel and Judah, saith the LORD: and I will cause them to return to the land that I gave to their fathers, and they shall possess it.
Jer 30:4 And these are the words that the LORD spake concerning Israel and concerning Judah.
Jer 30:5 For thus saith the LORD; We have heard a voice of trembling, of fear, and not of peace.
Jer 30:6 Ask ye now, and see whether a man doth travail with child? wherefore do I see every man with his hands on his loins, as a woman in travail, and all faces are turned into paleness?
Jer 30:7 Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob's trouble, but he shall be saved out of it.

This "time of Jacob's trouble", as spoken of in Jeremiah 30, is nearly universally recognized as the "time of trouble", or tribulation in scripture.  It is also clearly spoken of as the time of travail, (Jer 30:6), and refers to this time as "that day" (Jer 30:7), and both of which are phrases and descriptions of the Day of the Lord in numerous other places in scripture, such as Isaiah 13, .  Thus, the tribulation and the Day of the Lord both begin at the same time.

Finally, I believe that Paul was giving commentary on the events of Ezekiel 38-39 in 1 Thess 5, when he wrote the following:

1 Thessalonians 5:1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

Paul here describing the timing of the rapture, which was the subject of 1 Thess 4.  The "peace and safety" to which Paul refers is the peace and safety described in Ezekiel 38, which is the condition of Israel before the invasion.  Israel is obviously NOT experiencing peace and safety during the "time of Jacob's trouble", during the tribulation.  Therefore, the invasion against Israel as described in Ezekiel cannot occur at the end of the tribulation, during which time there is not peace, but rather a time of affliction and tribulation against Israel, who must flee from the Dragon who makes war on her, Rev 12:13-17.

9/13 - Randy:

Jason wrote: I agree that the rapture will be before, or at the start of, the Day of the Lord. I agree that the "last day" referred to several times in the New Testament is a reference to the Day of the Lord.

My reply: Your statement is acknowledged.

Jason wrote: Where we disagree is how long the Day of the Lord is, and when the Day of the Lord will occur, because I believe the Day of the Lord begins at the start of the tribulation to come. Phrased another way, I believe the Day of the Lord is 1000 years long (based on 2 Peter 3:8-10), and that the 7 year tribulation is the first part of the Day of the Lord.

My reply: 2 Peter:8-10, and supporting context, show Peter addressing the need to be patient in waiting for God's coming. The verses teach us that God is patient in allowing for everyone to have opportunity to come to repentance. God, being eternal spirit, is not subject time, hence a thousand years are like a day and a day like a thousand years. We do not know the timing of the LORD's return because we do not know at this point the day or hour, these are matters of time and relate to our fleshly existence, but God doesn't live by the clock as humanity does, hence our need to be patient.

There are no scriptures that support a period of seven years as the duration of the tribulation. The only scripture that specifies an exact seven year period (Daniel 9:27) shows the seven years as starting in peaceful terms for the first half (3.5 years) and then invasion and desolation occupying the second half. To qualify as tribulation there has to be in fact some sort of tribulation.

The day of the LORD is a single day and refers to the day he comes to claim what is his; his bride and his kingdom. That specific day is also referred to as the 'great day of great slaughter' and 'acruel day' (Isaiah 13:9).' It does indeed usher in the thousand year reign of Christ, but abdicates its importance, once accomplished, to the reign on earth of Christ and his resurrected immortals, the saints (Revelation 20:4).

The coming of the LORD concludes the seven year period, not precedes it (Daniel 9:27).

Jason wrote: I looked over your site, and your evidence for what you believe, so let's start with Ezekiel 38-39, since I believe this passage of scripture provides the clearest instruction that refutes your belief in several ways.

Regarding Ezekiel 38, my belief is that God will send a fire on the enemies of Israel at the start of the Day of the Lord, which is the start of the 7 year tribulation, and here are a few scriptural reasons why.

First, the nations that attack Israel in Ezekiel 38 are listed specifically, and do not include the whole world, and thus, this is not Armageddon, in which "the whole world" is gathered against Israel, as shown in Rev 16:14 "For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty."

My reply: The list of nations in Ezekiel constitutes the principle aggressors, led by Gog. The handful that are listed hardly equate to the term "the many nations with you." (Ezekiel 38:6,15,22-23) There are obviously many nations with them and this seems to be more a disagreement on semantics.

Fire from God will consume the enemies of Israel only twice; on the last day of the desolation (tribulation) and again after the thousand year reign (Revelation 20:7-9).

Jason wrote: Second, after the fire of God destroys Israel's enemies, Israel burns weapons for 7 years. This length of time is indicative of the 7 year tribulation.

My reply: Again, there is no scriptural validity to seven years of tribulation. Only three and one half years can be substantiated. Burning weapons for seven years is not indicative of anything more than the time it will take to consume these remnants from the battlefield.

Jason wrote: Eze 39:9 And they that dwell in the cities of Israel shall go forth, and shall set on fire and burn the weapons, both the shields and the bucklers, the bows and the arrows, and the handstaves, and the spears, and they shall burn them with fire seven years:

It would be extremely speculative to believe that Israel is burning weapons of their enemies during the first 7 years of paradise after Christ has physically returned.

My reply: Yes, it would also be extremely speculative to assume that the thousand year reign was Paradise. Paradise is the Father's house in heaven and it comes down after the thousand year reign (Revelation 2:7 and chapter 21 and 22:1-5). It is the only place we can find the tree of life and it will not be seen in the thousand year reign.

Jesus is coming to rule over men. His kingdom will be an earthly kingdom (Revelation 11:15) governed by the resurrected saints. And it will resemble Eden itself.

The true significance of the seven year supply of fuel is the shear enormity of it if you consider the great multitude that would use it.

Jason wrote: Third, Ezekiel indicates later in the narrative after the fire of God has poured out, that it is the "time of Jacob's trouble", by mentioning that God will "bring again the captivity of Jacob (or Israel)", which line is repeated in Jeremiah 30.

Eze 39:25 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Now will I bring again the captivity of Jacob, and have mercy upon the whole house of Israel, and will be jealous for my holy name; Jer 30:3 For, lo, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will bring again the captivity of my people Israel and Judah, saith the LORD: and I will cause them to return to the land that I gave to their fathers, and they shall possess it.
Jer 30:4 And these are the words that the LORD spake concerning Israel and concerning Judah.
Jer 30:5 For thus saith the LORD; We have heard a voice of trembling, of fear, and not of peace.
Jer 30:6 Ask ye now, and see whether a man doth travail with child? wherefore do I see every man with his hands on his loins, as a woman in travail, and all faces are turned into paleness?
Jer 30:7 Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob's trouble, but he shall be saved out of it.

This "time of Jacob's trouble", as spoken of in Jeremiah 30, is nearly universally recognized as the "time of trouble", or tribulation in scripture. It is also clearly spoken of as the time of travail, (Jer 30:6), and refers to this time as "that day" (Jer 30:7), and both of which are phrases and descriptions of the Day of the Lord in numerous other places in scripture, such as Isaiah 13, . Thus, the tribulation and the Day of the Lord both begin at the same time.

My reply: I am using the NIV and it reads differently, so I looked into my KJV and found it does read as you say, but you have not used the context that encompasses it. Instead you encompassed a select verse with verses from the context of another prophet. We are to compare prophecies for consistency in understanding, but it is unacceptable to mix and match! The context never lies.

The NIV reads:

"I will display my glory among the nations, and all the nations will see the punishment I inflict and the hand I lay on them. From that day forward the house of Israel will know that I am the LORD their God. And the nations will know that the people of Israel went into exile for their sin, because they were unfaithful to me. So I hid my face from them and handed them over to their enemies, and they fell by the sword. I dealt with them according to their uncleanness and their offenses, and I hid my face from them. Therefore this is what the Sovereign LORD says: I will now bring Jacob back from captivity and will have compassion on all the people of Israel, and I will be zealous for my Holy name. They will forget their shame and all the unfaithfulness they showed toward me when they lived in safety in their land with no one to make them afraid. When I have brought them back from the nations and have gathered them from the countries of their enemies, I will show myself holy through them in the sight of many nations. Then they will know that I am the LORD their God, for though I sent them into exile among nations, I will gather them to their own land, not leaving any behind. I will no longer hide my face from them, for I will pour out my Spirit on the house of Israel, declares the Sovereign LORD." (Ezekiel 39:21-29)

The only time Israel will live in safety with no fear of enemies is when they enter the seven year covenant with the antichrist. For 3.5 years they will be living in safety. This covenant is referred to by Isaiah (28:14-19) as the 'covenant with death.' We enter Ezekiel 38 with Israel living in safety. And just like in Daniel 9:27 we see a sudden invasion in the middle of the agreement. This invasion and subsequent plundering will last for 3.5 years and coincides with the abomination that causes desolation and thus lends to this period its name 'desolation' that Jesus referred to. After the battle Israel is gathered by God, not exiled into captivity again. The NIV puts it easier, but the KJV context clearly supports this as well. This is the beginning of the thousand year reign and not a thousand years of a last day or day of the LORD.

The continuing context in Jeremiah says, 'In that day,' declares the LORD Almighty, I will break the yoke off their necks and will tear off their bonds; no longer will foreigners enslave them. Instead they will serve the LORD their God and David their king, whom I will raise up for them."

So, the verses you quoted from Jeremiah show Jacobs trouble, the desolation. The continued context I quoted shows them having come out of the desolation with Jesus Christ as king (David their king) over Israel. And thus begins the thousand year reign of Jesus Christ and the resurrected saints over the earth.

Jason wrote: Finally, I believe that Paul was giving commentary on the events of Ezekiel 38-39 in 1 Thess 5, when he wrote the following:

1 Thessalonians 5:1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

Paul here describing the timing of the rapture, which was the subject of 1 Thess 4. The "peace and safety" to which Paul refers is the peace and safety described in Ezekiel 38, which is the condition of Israel before the invasion. Israel is obviously NOT experiencing peace and safety during the "time of Jacob's trouble", during the tribulation. Therefore, the invasion against Israel as described in Ezekiel cannot occur at the end of the tribulation, during which time there is not peace, but rather a time of affliction and tribulation against Israel, who must flee from the Dragon who makes war on her, Rev 12:13-17.

My reply: Jesus told us in Luke 17:26-37 that people will be living regular lives up to that day, The desolation is not the wrath of God on the world. It is wrath allowed by God against Israel. Most of the world will be worshiping the antichrist as some form of savior, so naturally they will claim peace and safety. Only Israel and the true believers in Christ will endure the trials of the desolation and Satan's rage for 3.5 years (1260 days).

Regarding the Day of the Lord, and whether it is 24 hours or 1000 years:

Well, 2 Peter 3:8-10 tells us that we are not to be ignorant that "that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day," and yes, the context is the Day of the Lord, verse 10.  As for me, I refuse to remain in willful ignorance on this.  As for you, here are two more witnesses of this testimony, that a day with the Lord is as 1000 years.   Psalm 90:4, Gen. 2:17.  --Genesis is very important, because God said that Adam would die within a day, but Adam, and others before the flood, lived over 900 years, and thus, they did die within a day, according to the Lord, if and only if, a day with the Lord is as 1000 years.

The point of 2 Peter 3:8 is rather specific and clear, and I'll urge you as Peter did, please don't remain in ignorance of this any longer; the day of the Lord is 1000 years, as Rev 20 also testifies.

Here is another way to quickly prove that the Day of the Lord is not 24 hours long:  We both agree that the Day of the Lord is when the wrath of God is poured out, yes?

Revelation 15:1 And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God.

Well, one of the vials contains quite a specific kind of wrath, let's see:

Rev 16:2 And the first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshipped his image.

Ah, and how long do these sores last, these torments that fall upon the men who take the mark of the beast?  How long does this wrath last?  Is it 24 hours or longer?

Rev 9:4 And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.
Rev 9:5 And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man.
Rev 9:6 And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them.

Ah, here we see these torments upon the men who take the mark of the beast last 5 months, so the wrath of God lasts at least 5 months, so the Day of the Lord, containing the wrath of God, lasts at least 5 months.  It was the certainty of this argument that converted some who rejected the pretrib, and who were post trib, to change to the "pre wrath" position, where they feel the rapture will take place at least 5 months (or more) prior to the end of the tribulation.

There are numerous other examples, of course.  Famine is an event of the day of the Lord.

Rev 18:8 Therefore shall her plagues come in one day, death, and mourning, and famine; and she shall be utterly burned with fire: for strong is the Lord God who judgeth her.

Famine takes longer than one 24-hour day to take hold, otherwise, it's just a simple fast that anyone can endure, and certainly not a plague.

There's simply no justification to claim that the Day of the Lord is 24 hours; you have to maintain willful ignorance to make such an absurd claim.

Regarding the "many nations" that come against Israel in Ezekiel 38 and the "whole world" that comes against Israel at the end of the tribulation in Rev 16:14.  I see that as a difference.  In Ezekiel 38 there appears to be a dialogue, a discussion about the impending invasion.  Other nations, not Israel, seem to ask about the invasion.

Ezekiel 38:13  Sheba, and Dedan, and the merchants of Tarshish, with all the young lions thereof, shall say unto thee, Art thou come to take a spoil? hast thou gathered thy company to take a prey? to carry away silver and gold, to take away cattle and goods, to take a great spoil?

This is a contrast with Armageddon, when there are no bystanders, the entire world is against Israel.

When you simply said, "this is a disagreement on semantics", I don't see how that refutes my point that the Gog & Magog war is not Armageddon.

When you say "Fire from God will consume the enemies of Israel only twice", I really don't know how to respond.  Where is your evidence?  Yes, I know about Rev 20.  What you should really try to prove is that the fire of God falls at the end of the tribulation--but you didn't even try to do that.  But even if you did that, you still have not proved that the fire of God that falls in Ezekiel 38 is not a third case of the fire of God falling, as you asserted without evidence.

Regarding the length of the coming tribulation, and whether it is 7 years or 3.5.

You admit Daniel 9:27 speaks on this, but you claim that only the second half is tribulation, or distress.  Well, what is Daniel's 70th week based upon?  The 70 weeks.  The entire 70 weeks are described as a "curse" from God (Dan 9:11), a "great evil" (Dan 9:12-14), God's "anger and fury" (Dan 9:16) described as "troublous times" (Dan 9:25).  Likewise then, the first half of the 70th week will also be a curse from God, a great evil, a time of his anger and fury, and troublous times.  Tribulation, or distress (same concept), are words that aptly describe those things.

You claim that there is no Biblical support for saying the tribulation lasts seven years.  I'm glad you recognize Daniel 9:27 at the least.    I've already mentioned another one, evidence that you reject, from Ezekiel 39.  It clearly mentions 7 years.

Now, it does not say they have a seven-year supply of weapons to burn.  They may have an 8-year supply, or a 15 year supply, but they only burn them for 7 years.  Or, they might have a 4-month supply of weapons for fuel, that they manage to stretch out for 7 years as Jesus multiplied the fish and loaves.  The point scripture is making in Ezekiel 39 about this is not that they "have a lot of weapons to burn".  That is not how you interpret specific quotations of time periods.  The time is specific, and it's for a reason.  And you have not explained why you believe it is appropriate for them to be burning weapons during the time when you think this war takes place.  If the invasion happens in the middle of the tribulation, as you assert, but the enemies are not destroyed by God until the end of tribulation, as you assert, why then, would they continue to burn weapons for fuel after Jesus has returned?  Such a thought MAKES NO SENSE out of the mention of the 7 year time period.  But it makes perfect sense that the 7 years they burn weapons for fuel is the length of the tribulation, the 7 years of Daniel's 70th week, of which Ezekiel was well aware.

Regarding the covenant with death of Isaiah 28, and Daniel's 70th week.  I'm glad we agree these are the same reference.

You assert without feeling the need to support your assertions (as if all your assertions are factual), "The only time Israel will live in safety with no fear of enemies is when they enter the seven year covenant with the antichrist."  Hey now, need I remind you of the peace that Israel will live in during the millennium?  So, obviously you are wrong.  But upon what authority do you say that the peace of the first 3.5 years is the "ONLY" peace Israel will see?  It does not say that in Daniel 9:27, nor in Isaiah 28, so where do you get this concept, upon what is it founded?  Are you just making things up out of thin air?  Where is your Biblical support for your idea?

But if the first peace that comes to Israel is the covenant with death, or the man of sin, then why does God tell us to "pray for the peace of Jerusalem"?

Psalm 122:6  Pray for the peace of Jerusalem: they shall prosper that love thee.

Instead of praying for the antichrist to come so that he can bring a false peace to Israel, I will pray that Israel lives in peace now, and becomes wealthy now.

Regarding the "captivity of Jacob".  I quoted this in Ezekiel 39 and Jeremiah 30 to show that after the invasion, it is the tribulation, the time of Jacob's trouble, also the time of travail, and the time of the Day of the Lord.

You looked up Ezekiel 39 in the NIV, but you neglected Jeremiah 30.  The point I made is that it is the same thing, in the NIV it is the same thing, that Israel is coming "back from captivity".

NIV Jer 30:3 The days are coming,' declares the LORD , 'when I will bring my people Israel and Judah back from captivity [1] and restore them to the land I gave their forefathers to possess,' says the LORD ."

You wrote, "After the battle Israel is gathered by God, not exiled into captivity again."  Yes, we agree on that.  I did not assert that Jacob would be going into captivity after the Gog & Magog war.  The point was that the similarity between the two passages shows that after the Gog and Magog invasion, it is the time of Jacob's trouble, it is the tribulation.

Now, the type of peace in Ezekiel 38 appears to be different than the peace of the first half of the 7 year tribulation.  There is no indication that the pace in Ezekiel 38 is a 3.5 year peace, nor is there any mention of the antichrist.  In Ezekiel 38, we can see that Israel also has grown wealthy, and that the wealth is the occasion for the invasion.  (Ezek 38:12,13)  I don't know if 3.5 years is enough time to transform Israel of today into the wealthy nation that would inspire invasions against it.  Besides, the invasion in the tribulation is not because of the wealth of Israel, that other invasion to come is due to the wrath of Satan, see Rev 12 again.

We know that the antichrist comes to power through peace; he comes making peace. (Daniel 8:25, 11:21,24)  This is during the first part of the tribulation, before he takes the title of God and goes out making war for the second half.  If the antichrist brings peace, then it must be after a time of war.  What war would you suggest happens prior to the peace of the antichrist?  I suggest it is the Gog and Magog invasion that God destroys with fire.

You suggest the Gog and Magog invasion lasts 3.5 years, the second half of Daniels 70th week.  However, there is nothing in Ezekiel 38-39 that suggests the invasion or plundering lasts that length of time.

I think you have an overly optimistic idea of the conditions of life on earth during Daniel's 70th week.  You say that Israel will be at peace the first half, and that the world will be at peace the entire time, because, and I quote you, "Most of the world will be worshiping the antichrist as some form of savior, so naturally they will claim peace and safety.  Only Israel and the true believers in Christ will endure the trials of the desolation and Satan's rage for 3.5 years (1260 days)."

As I understand that time, 1/2 the population of the world will be killed.  First, a fourth is killed, and then, of the remaining three fourths, a third is killed, leaving only two fourths, or a half left.

Revelation 6:8 And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.

Revelation 9:15 And the four angels were loosed, which were prepared for an hour, and a day, and a month, and a year, for to slay the third part of men.

So then, I do not think that the peace described in Luke 17:26-37 is describing the tribulation, when 1/2 the population of the earth is wiped out within 7 years.  No, the peace in Luke 17:26-37 is describing the peace prior to the tribulation, prior to the Day of the Lord, prior to the pretribulation rapture, prior to the Gog & Magog invasion.  Luke 17 describes people as taking no note of the day--this describes conditions prior to the pretrib rapture, because peace is not a description of the tribulation, when the men of the earth are humbled, and terrified, and killed, and are making war, and are gathering for war in the valley of Armageddon.

Look again at the verse I quoted for you, and ask when does it apply?

1 Thess 5:3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

Can this apply at the middle of the tribulation?  No, because there is no "sudden destruction" at the middle, and certainly, Israel WILL ESCAPE the destruction sent by the antichrist.  She is given wings of eagles to escape, Rev 12.

Can this apply at the end of the tribulation?  No, because 1/2 the population of the world was just destroyed by war in the prior 7 years, and the rest of the world's armies are gathering together for war in Armageddon.  If anything, the end of the tribulation will be the most war-filled time in all of human history, there certainly will not be peace.

The application of 1 Thess 5:3 is to the beginning of the tribulation, the beginning of the Day of the Lord.  Ezekiel 38 describes the peace of Israel prior to the invasion, and the fire of God falling is the "sudden destruction" which begins the tribulation and Day of the Lord, as I showed.  Likewise, the peace in Luke 17 is prior to the tribulation and the Day of the Lord.

On a concluding note regarding this debate so far:  Thanks for attempting to address the issues I raised in my opening letter.  You did, indeed, speak at the issues, and you spoke of the issues, but you did not refute the points I made.  Making unsubstantiated assertions, as you mostly did, does not prove or refute anything.

Example:  I listed 4 proofs for why the Ezekiel war starts the tribulation.
You gave one proof for your idea that the invasion starts in the middle of the trib, and the fire of God falls at the end of the trib.  Your one proof consisted of you asserting that the peace of the first half of the tribulation is the peace in Ezekiel 38.  You made the assertion, but you gave no evidence or reasoning.  In contrast, with my proofs, I gave evidence, listed reasons, and I went over it thoughtfully.

Now, when you compare evidence, and it's one unsubstantiated reason, shown to be poor, verses 4 solid reasons, which remain unrefuted, then I feel this debate has served its purpose quite well.  Thank you for making my view look so good.

1 Corinthians 11:19  For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you.